So what backstory am I supposed to know here? ‘Cause I’m not sure how knowing that Garrosh was a whiny angsty obnoxious jerk in Nagrand who was all hurt because he thought Hellscream succumbed to the demons and gave a bad name to the race of orcs as a whole and needed Thrall to haul ass up to the Outlands to beat him in the head with the ‘stop whining you prick’ stickreallymakes him that much more of a sympathetic character.
How about when Thrall gave him the role of warchief to help him prove himself and he murdered Cairn Bloodhoof (and don’t give me the ‘poisoned by Grimtotem’ shit), pissed off Vol’jin, straight up ignored Sylvanas turning into the new Lich King, brought goblins into the Horde, destroyed the years of work Thrall did to try and bring peace between the Alliance and Horde, and is now lording around like he made the Horde and he’s the greatest thing since the phrase ‘Loktar ogar’ and being a general douchebag to…well, pretty much everyone that isn’t an orc warrior? Or his wonderful little condescending introduction of the pandaren to the tauren saying “Even the tauren have made themselves useful - look, this one is a shaman.” You know, shaman. Like Thrall is. Like one of the greatest classes for orcs to be. And tauren. You know, like one of their greatest allies. (Don’t believe me? True facts. Go play pandaren and go Horde side. He has this great warm welcoming of you into the Horde.)
How about the fact that he’s about to become a raid boss and is pretty obviously either demon possessed, or he’s really just that big of an asshole?
How about how he segregated Orgrimmar?
How about because he’s such a huge douchebag he’s been turning the Horde back into the aggressive monster bad guys? (Again, check the pandaren opening and how they describe the Horde vs. how they describe the Alliance.) How about that no one in the Horde actually likes him except for the devout orc followers he’s raised up?
What backstory and motivations am I missing here? Because really? I know he’s badly written and I know the writers of WoW have royally fucked up both the lore and the Horde, but Garrosh is pretty much a huge douchebag, and has always been a huge douchebag. He’s just a louder, more obnoxious, more obviously bad douchebag now. This isn’t really a ‘aw poor baby’ character, so I don’t know why you’re being so snarkily defensive of him.
I played back in vanilla WoW and I loved the Horde, and still do. Except now, largely because of shitty writing and because of Garrosh, I really can’t defend them anymore and it pisses me off. He’s one of the main reasons I stopped liking playing WoW so much. So yeah, I’m allowed to be pissed off and you can either suck it up or go somewhere else.
Thrall disciple out, ladies!
there’s so many things wrong with this i could cry
let’s begin. Keep an open mind here and listen to what I’m going to tell you.
'Cause I'm not sure how knowing that Garrosh was a whiny angsty obnoxious jerk in Nagrand who was all hurt because he thought Hellscream succumbed to the demons and gave a bad name to the race of orcs as a whole and needed Thrall to haul ass up to the Outlands to beat him in the head with the 'stop whining you prick' stickreallymakes him that much more of a sympathetic character.
In essence, you would be… correct? I guess? I mean, you could phrase anything like that and it would sound just as compassionate (kicked a puppy? tell it to man-up and stop being a fucking pussy). But let’s reiterate Nagrand and Garrosh’s “daddy issues” for a little bit.
First, You have to keep in mind that this is an essentially “human” character, with relatable emotions and fears and flaws. He is mortal. He is complex. He is not 2-dimensional.
Garrosh Hellscream, in Nagrand, thought his father doomed his entire race. He thought this for years. He had no closure as to what happened to Grom, and so he was left to bask in the shame of thinking that his father turned your entire race (and Orcs are very… “nationalistic” by nature, so this is a biggie, and of course is not something that can be shaken off or taken lightly) into, essentially, a throng of bloodthirsty animals.
Grom was a chieftain, a leader. And Garrosh his only son. Garrosh is expected to eventually take on the responsibilities of caring for his people, but… Garrosh is depressed. And this isn’t something one can just snap out of, obviously. Ask anyone with depression.
Garrosh was thoroughly convinced that he would turn out just like his father. That he would doom everyone, that if he took on the mantle of leadership, then horrific things would happen.
This line of thought, if left uninterrupted, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If he does nothing, if he refuses responsibility, then of course he’ll be a shitty leader. The bar isn’t set high, here. And Garrosh feels as if a fate of shame, dishonor, and disgrace is unavoidable, so why try and fight it?
Enter Thrall. He takes every idea that Garrosh had about his father, about his fate, and turns it on its head.
Suddenly, Grom is no longer a worst case scenario. He’s a role model, someone to look up to!
HERE’S THE THING, HERE’S THE POINT I’M TRYING TO MAKE:
This didn’t “snap” Garrosh out of any depression. It did not abolish the notion of, “I’m going to turn out like my dad.” It did not make him see any light. It didn’t get Garrosh to pull himself together. It did NOT, NOT NOT NOT make Garrosh think, “My fate is my own, I do not have to turn out like my dad.”
What it did, was made it so instead of the “I’m going to turn out like my Father,” mindset Garrosh was stuck in, it altered it into “I HAVE to turn out like my Father.” Suddenly, being Grom was something to HOPE for, to WORK TOWARDS. Instead of his destiny being something that he just let happen, it was, abruptly, something that he had to STRIVE for, to just hope of being half the hero that his father was.
He still needed to be like the image that he had of his dad. And, unfortunately, he idolizes him.
And so, when he travels to Azeroth, what does he do? He overcompensates. He feels guilty, I’d think, for not being involved in Horde politics all this time. And so he marches in, buts heads with others, is stubborn and fierce and challenging and obnoxious and pig-headed. Because that’s what he thinks orcs do. He grows up in a culture vastly different than that of “Thrall’s Horde,” where he isn’t familiar with diplomacy and tolerance to other peoples. Everything Garrosh does at this point is to establish himself in the pecking order.
Does this excuse his brash behavior? Heh, no. Not at all. But you have to take the character for what he is, and what he is, is a stubborn, quick tempered brute. I’d recommend reading this short story for some insight on his character. Don’t skip it, it’s worth a read and it’ll pull at your heartstrings.
Ok, Nagrand arc over, let’s keep the ball rolling.
How about when Thrall gave him the role of warchief to help him prove himself and he murdered Cairn (sic) Bloodhoof
STOP RIGHT THERE
ABSOLUTELY WRONG. “don’t give me that poisoned bs” NO STOP PLEASE DON’T. do NOT do this.
Did you actually read the Shattering?
And if you did, were you high at any point during the reading?
I am going to ask you to read something, and I want you to stop reading my page right now, and read this article before you continue.
Why are you still reading? Ok, i’ll convince you; it thoroughly debunks every argument for “Garrosh killed Cairne.” If your reasoning is one of the following:
Because Garrosh poisoned his axe and cheated!
- Because Garrosh challenged Cairne to a duel!
- Because Garrosh was going to kill Cairne anyway, with or without poison!
- Because Garrosh’s stubbornness caused the duel!
- Because Garrosh didn’t have to accept the duel!
Then you are absolutely wrong, and I’ll ask you again, read the article, because Garrosh is probably the only blameless person involved in the entire goddamn incident.
pissed off Vol’jin,
Dude, Vol’jin literally walked up to garrosh, and threatened to put a fucking arrow between his eyes.
Listen, I love Vol’jin, I like his involvement in the story line; he’s a great character. But a direct threat like that? In orcish society? Those are fighting words, and could have been taken as a threat and direct challenge to Garrosh’s authority, which probably could have resulted in another duel. Which… would be dumb. Do I see why Vol’jin is angry? Of course. Was the conflict Vol’jin’s fault? Essentially, yeah.
straight up ignored Sylvanas turning into the new Lich King,
I am literally going to cry because GARROSH IS THE ONLY FUCKING PERSON ON THE FACE OF AZEROTH WHO IS ACTUALLY KEEPING AN EYE ON SYLVANAS, AND HE “STRAIGHT UP” CONDEMNED HER FOR HER ACTIONS.
Hey look, another article, this one detailing that the very reason Garrosh shouldn’t die is because of the fact that he’s trying to keep Sylvanas on a short leash!
brought goblins into the Horde,
You… You played the goblin starting zone, right?
Well, first, I’m not sure why Goblins joining the Horde is a bad thing.
But that isn’t the point because THRALL WAS THE ONE THAT BROUGHT GOBLINS INTO THE HORDE OH MY GOD…. wh…. should i even continue here? What are you doing?!
I mean, I like Thrall as much as the next person (aka, a lot, despite Metzen sucking his dick), and you obviously like him, but why are you shitting on something that Thrall did ??
I??? don’t understand???
destroyed the years of work Thrall did to try and bring peace between the Alliance and Horde
Yup. But that isn’t something to hate him for; he’s putting the “War” into “warchief.” Do I agree with it? Please, I’m a hippie, and I was a PvE hero. Of course not. But that’s his personality, and it isn’t like it was out of left field. Yes, he isn’t one for peace.
He wants to be “dad,” remember? He hates those pinkskins; he’s still trying to live up to this imaginary orcish ideal of his.
Does that excuse his actions? Of course not. But it’s simply something to be acknowledged and moved on from.
I mean, come on. I love(d) Jaina; what a cutie. And before Cata, Thrall/Jaina was probably the cutest thing… ever. But is it inherently evil or wrong to try to wage war against people you feel have wronged you?
Well, I don’t see you shitting yourself over Varian’s anti-Horde racism pre-MoP, so I’d guess it isn’t a major factor for you.
Garrosh (Pre MoP) hated humans and Alliance and, well, everything that isn’t an orc. And that was to be expected.
being a general douchebag to…well, pretty much everyone that isn’t an orc warrior? Or his wonderful little condescending introduction of the pandaren to the tauren
Also true. Also to be expected. Garrosh thinks of the Horde as Orcs & Everyone Else. In his mind, he’s the leader of an Orcish horde, rather than the band of misfits that it is in reality. This ties back to his culture etc. about orc supremacy, arrogance, nationalism, etc.
And this is seen to some extent in most other faction leaders as well, be it Orcs, or Forsaken, or Blood Elves, or Night Elves, or Humans. There’s always this sense of “we’re the best, and everything would be better off if everyone else just fucked off.”
The difference being, that Garrosh possesses a dangerous amount of power politically to hold such an opinion. That’s what made Thrall an alright leader— he served as a moderator and tried to balance out all of these conflicting personalities among leaders, ya know? He was this Orc-that-basically-pretended-he-was-a-human.
How about the fact that he’s about to become a raid boss and is pretty obviously either demon possessed, or he’s really just that big of an asshole?
Pretty sure the general consensus is, “it’s the SHAAAAAA, maaaaaan!!!”
Which is absolutely depressing the hell out of me, beause:
a. Corruption has been done to death in WoW
b.let me quote that Know Your Lore article I linked you earlier, because it articulates my feelings better than I can right now:
“If Garrosh dies, it is only reinforcing the idea that power and greed lead to corruption, and corruption leads to certain demise. We get it. Warcraft is a sometimes dark, grim and depressing universe to be in, especially if you’re in a position of authority. As it stands, Grom Hellscream died a hero. Yes, he was the first to drink the blood of Mannoroth; yes, he led the orcs into years of bloody war. But in the end, he realized what he had done was not the right path to take, and he was rewarded for that realization with death. A heroic death, but death nonetheless.
And if Garrosh dies, he does nothing to honor his father’s memory. It would be an intensely ironic moment, but it would also be an incredibly depressing one: the boy who keenly wanted to be a big damn hero just like his dad and ended up nearly bringing the Horde to disaster as a result. In a way, yes, he would be following his father’s path, right up to the moment where he dies. There’s nothing inspiring about that tale.”
(cue me crying)
Now, through all of Cataclysm, we get to see glimpses of Garrosh in quest lines. We get to see… a spark. A seed. A little glimmer of humility and honor taking root in Garrosh’s mind. It means that he learned something when he was in Northrend with Saurfang. And it implied that with time, he would become a genuinely good leader, one worth following. That he could gain experience and that he was learning. We see it in Stonetalon. And it’s a good thing.
And then in Tides of War, it all gets scrapped and flushed down the drain.
Here’s the thing, no one likes MoP-Garrosh. Not me, not anyone else. You’re right; he is now officially being cast as a VILLIAN. Being pro-MoP-Garrosh would be like being Pro-Deathwing. Pro-Lich King. Pro-Ragnaros.
But does that mean that you cannot empathize with Illidan’s backstory and find it tragic?
Does that mean you cannot appreciate Arthas’s character?
Does that mean that you can’t look at Kael’thas and see a leader that only thought that he was doing what was best for his people?
And so I’ll leave you with one more article, because it does summarize my frustrations with Blizz’s writing team pretty well. Because you’re right in one aspect: Blizz’s writing team and characterization are piss poor and they should feel bad.
Thanks for sticking with me!
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